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Post by Random on Mar 21, 2007 20:39:22 GMT -5
my DS lite doesn't have keyboard support for every little thing either. because I don't really need a keyboard to play games like Phoenix Wright. same goes for the 360, you don't need a keyboard to do every little thing, and for the things that you DO need it, there is support, thus, your point is completely meaningless. also I'm pretty sure the developers decide when it can be used, not microsoft.
The gamecube and wii are both smaller than any modern laptop I've ever seen and can easily be put into a backpack to carry somewhere. PS2 is similar, but a little larger. I've never really looked at the size of 360s or PS3s, but I know PS3s are big (they suck ass anyways) and the original xbox is just a bit bigger than a PS2 I think so it also fits decently in a backpack.
If you seriously think that a game console is heavy compared to a laptop, and requires extra crap to carry cables and controllers, you're out of your mind. the cables take almost no additional space, and the controllers don't take up that much space unless you're trying to fit the console in your purse. the bit about needing a spare tv is completely and utterly pointless because pretty much everyone has a TV handy at their house.
laptop batteries suck ass. period. after like a few months of use they just become useless.
the simplicity bit is even more meaningless because, while thats all great, it requires linux, which most people probably don't even know about, let alone care enough about to install on a computer. basically, that whole thing amounts to "hey, we can make this simpler, but only if we make it more complex first". that and there're numerous reasons in that article why that guy won't do very well with it, such as the utter lack of experience with games as a business, and the arguments about how you don't need directx and crap with it are also pointless because they're all packaged directly with the game that requires it, and you just have to click once more to install it.
As computers get more powerful consistency will get WORSE. This one should be obvious. The more little parts there are moving around and doing their own thing, the more likely it is that they'll interfere with each other and screw something up
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Post by Blues on Mar 21, 2007 21:39:22 GMT -5
Wii is tiny. PS3 is a freaking huge brick, and the 360 is actually rather small.
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Post by Arachis on Mar 21, 2007 22:30:03 GMT -5
Did you read that article JP? It doesnt require linux on your computer. It just requires linux on the CD, so that effectively your computer boots off of the CD and runs straight into the game. It works regardless of operating system. I dont know how much more simple you can get. In fact, in some ways, its probably easier than a console.
The 360 is a little smaller than the original xbox but has an external power supply that is about as big as the 360 itself and ways a ton. Regardless, in my personal experience, carrying around a Wii is more of a pain than carrying a laptop in a laptop bag, Im sure the other consoles would be even worse. I brought up the TV point, because actually, it does restrict where you play. It means you cant really play after work in the office, or in a variety of other places that arent "at home", including most dorm rooms. It also means that you cant have more than 4 people playing at a time without bringing the extra TV screen.
And I dont know what kind of consistency you are talking about. I imagine that as computers get more powerful, the "moving parts" that interfere with each other will probably be taken care of by computer manufacturers. Nobody would buy a computer that only lasts 2 weeks before it glitches up because of "moving parts" so if they cant fix that, it wont sell. What I meant is that currently games sometimes have to be coded so that they dont use as much processing power, so they can work on different kinds of computers, low end AND high end. Consoles dont face this problem. I imagine as computers get better, that kind of consistency will become more and more meaningless, because theres a point where the graphical processing will cease to make a difference. All computers will be able to process at a speed higher than any one game needs.
The reason the keyboard was even brought up at all, is because I said it was an example of how consoles are essentially crippled controlled computers. On a computer you can decided to use the keyboard as a control system. On the Xbox, microsoft has to decide that for you.
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Post by Monolith on Mar 22, 2007 0:37:50 GMT -5
This argument is getting stupid. Who cares if I can't play street fighter on a keyboard, why would I want to? Keyboards suck for anything but first person shooters. Also, I'm not sure if it's safe to say that Microsoft has 'limited' the keyboard functionality if it wasn't added in to begin with. A console has similar parts to a computer because it works similarly but the don't make consoles by buying a computer and then removing parts from it. It's built from the ground up with its own operating system.
As for those self booting games, the issue with these is you already have an operating system and side processes running in the background and using up ram, which I'd imagine would greatly interfere with running a game along with its own operating system. Besides, the advantage for computer games is that they're patchable, why the hell would I want to forfeit this? What I mean to say is that computers have their own advantages, so why turn them into gimpy consoles in the first place? It's a dumb idea for any game that utilizes any real amount of resources.
Besides, I can't see the price issue being resolved anytime soon. Computer companies don't make their money on software royalties, so you pay more. You also need to pay for the OS which requires more developement and therefore costs more. Consoles will always be cheaper than computer capable of running equivalent graphics.
Also, you suggested that the Wii is more of an 'electronic toy' than a console. BS, out of all the new consoles it sticks the most with the original idea of console gaming, which is to be an electronic toy. Consoles are electronic toys.
Finally, why the hell would consoles die off? Some guy is putting the equivalent of a flash game on a self booting CD, and all of a sudden is spells the end for consoles. Well then, have fun paying for your alienware $$$box. I'm fine keeping the two separate and paying a lot less.
I'm not saying consoles are generally better than computers at playing games, but the console industry model leads to a lot of advantages computers don't have. Besides, people will pay a lot of money for the small conveniences of not having to buy extra cables and such just so their computer can do what a console does.
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Post by Blues on Mar 22, 2007 0:45:57 GMT -5
This argument is getting stupid. Who cares if I can't play street fighter on a keyboard I can actually play SF on a keyboard pretty well... sorry for gaping the argument. haaaa
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Post by Random on Mar 22, 2007 1:45:20 GMT -5
actually you still have to deal with your computer's basic BIOS, and there can be problems with that, especially with people who are surprised when they see the stuff pop up about what to boot off of and then don't understand what its asking or are just too stupid to even read it and immediately start calling tech support (people are this stupid)
in your personal experience? I seriously doubt you've ever really carried around a wii. I'm unsure about other consoles but the gamecube had several versions of a monitor that you could use to play anywhere without a TV, which, when added to the base price of the gamecube, still cost less than laptops that could play similar quality games at that time, and I have no reason to believe that has changed. can't have more than 4 people playing at a time without bringing an extra TV? thats fine. you can't have more than ONE person playing at a time without bring an extra laptop or desktop.
consistency is being able to play a game with the blue screen of death. its being able to play your game 100% of the time no matter what else you're doing. its not having bugs randomly and having to wait for the people who made the game to patch it so its not screwy with certain hardware/drivers. that will get WORSE as computers get more powerful and thus more complex.
and computers aren't just going to keep getting more and more powerful. they can only handle so much electricity. there're also always ways to use more processing power. better AI, more crap on the screen, all sorts of stuff.
as far as being able to choose between keyboard and controller, choice is good but honestly, it really doesn't matter. a game is not going to be gimped because you can't use a keyboard to control it. fairly trivial, especially now that people're understand what kind of control schemes work well for controllers.
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Post by Arachis on Mar 22, 2007 2:24:21 GMT -5
Nick.. I dont understand you. You pretty much disagreed with things that I said and then repeated it.I quite directly said the exact same thing. That the point of a console is to be an electronic toy.
As I mentioned beforehand, it would be one thing if consoles used similar parts to Computers, however the new consoles' guts are computers. In this sense a computer can do just about everything the console can because they are almost the same.
You also dont seem to understand the technology behind the CD game. You put the game in, and the computer boots off of the game. This is pretty much the exact same function that consoles have. And JP, there would be no fiddling around in BIOS because by default BIOS boots from the CD before booting from the hard drive. So it is quite simply plug and play.
Your issue with computer games having their own strengths is irrelevent, because computer will still be able to play games regularly too, just for those interested in a more simple approach, the plug and play option will be available.
Unlike you I can see the price issue being resolved, since with OS's like linux, you dont have to pay for the OS. Unlike consoles, you can get free games for the computer. And even if those measures still dont make computers as cheap as consoles, it wont matter, because computers can also do many other tasks for no additional cost. Not to mention having a computer is almost necessary today, so the choice is more likely to be, "should I spend a little more money to have a better computer or spend that money to get a console" When you look at it that way the price difference is not as big.
Oh, and the Xbox 360 has its own version of the Blue Screen of Death.
Im not trying to say that consoles dont have their advantages. Im just trying to show you that in many ways computers can already do those things or are close to getting there. Many of the Next Generation game companys are porting their products to Xbox 360, PS3 and the PC. I think thats as good a sign as any that consoles are closer than ever to being replaced by the PC
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Post by Random on Mar 22, 2007 2:33:43 GMT -5
You also dont seem to understand the technology behind the CD game. You put the game in, and the computer boots off of the game. This is pretty much the exact same function that consoles have. And JP, there would be no fiddling around in BIOS because by default BIOS boots from the CD before booting from the hard drive. So it is quite simply plug and play. Default on, at the very least, windows xp is to boot from the hard drive. Maybe different for ubuntu or whatever, but thats not what most people run. Unlike you I can see the price issue being resolved, since with OS's like linux, you dont have to pay for the OS. Unlike consoles, you can get free games for the computer. And even if those measures still dont make computers as cheap as consoles, it wont matter, because computers can also do many other tasks for no additional cost. Not to mention having a computer is almost necessary today, so the choice is more likely to be, "should I spend a little more money to have a better computer or spend that money to get a console" When you look at it that way the price difference is not as big. linux is not going to gain market share. windows has and always will continue to spank it, even if linux does what needs to be done to make it easily usable for your average idiot. Oh, and the Xbox 360 has its own version of the Blue Screen of Death. yes, and not only does it rarely show up compared to on PCs, none of the other consoles have those issues. my gamecube has crashed on me once ever because I had it on for like 2 days straight and then tried to play a timesplitters game on a custom map with max bots and max players.
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Post by Blues on Mar 22, 2007 2:38:33 GMT -5
terrance, i play your mom with a keyboard pretty well! yeah, I was there taping it, remember? but you missed and creamed the lens, so out video now has a rockstar ending...
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Post by Arachis on Mar 22, 2007 2:51:18 GMT -5
the default has nothing to do with the OS, it has to do with the BIOS. Are you just arguing with me for the sake of arguing JP, do you really think Im wrong? I feel like you're just picking out spelling errors, and then denying the validity of what I actually wrote.
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Post by Monolith on Mar 22, 2007 2:57:14 GMT -5
I'll give you the other points, it seems I misinterpretted your post. The price issue is still unresolved in my mind. An extra $500 doesn't get you much these days as far as upgrading a computer, and I doubt it would be enough to get it to run on the same level as a modern console. I just checked out Alienware, and their desktops cost a minimum of $1700 or so, but that ain't gonna run Gears of War. My computer is around $1000, but it's also a laptop. Unless I'm running some really heavy software, a desktop I buy is probably going to cost less. That's a difference of easily about $1000, hardly "a little more money". I'd rather just buy a console and save a bundle.
Free games for the computer? If you're counting flash games then I'll pass. As for Linux, I don't know much about it, and I'm rather confused about how it runs software without some sort of emulator. It's also rather innaccessable to the average consumer who doesn't want to go to the trouble to download it (which requires that you have a computer already).
Of course, you have a point with many companies publishing for the computer. This is practical if you already have a high performance computer, but this practice has been occurring for some time already with many FPS's (and vice versa, like with Half-Life). The earliest game I can think of doing this was a Chronicles of Riddick game which was released maybe a year after the Xbox came out. That was around 5 years ago, but it doesn't seem to be happening much more frequently to me. I even discovered the Silent Hill games are available for the PC, but I'd never heard about it because few people really care. Console games on the computer are not a new trend, and therefore doesn't suggest any favoritism on the part of consumers.
And lawl at the 360 overheating, my friend's does this occasionally, but only after about 3 hours of solid play. It's actually a good was to remind us to take a break. He doesn't have the cooler I don't think.
But whatever, I'm ready to sit back and watch. We'll see how the industry turns out in a few years and arguing over it now won't solve much.
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Post by Random on Mar 22, 2007 3:02:24 GMT -5
the default has nothing to do with the OS, it has to do with the BIOS. Are you just arguing with me for the sake of arguing JP, do you really think Im wrong? I feel like you're just picking out spelling errors, and then denying the validity of what I actually wrote. I'm not that awake right now, but regardless. Dell computers are set to default to the hard-drive, and I have absolutely no reason to think most others are not. Yes, I do really think you're wrong. My favorite was saying that xbox 360s are black (there are actually some that're black now and only a limited amount are being made, they have better hardware than the normal ones and down the road they're upgrading the basic 360s to have the better hardware too)
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Post by Arachis on Mar 22, 2007 8:28:37 GMT -5
sorry, I kind of saw the new xbox 360 in black a couple days ago, and I also keep confusing how it looks with the old original xbox (which is also black) I dont think its an important point.
Also I have a dell, but its a laptop, so it could be running a different bios (in fact it probably is, since Ive got a different motherboard).
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Post by caffine10x on Mar 22, 2007 15:19:14 GMT -5
yeah, I was there taping it, remember? but you missed and creamed the lens, so out video now has a rockstar ending... lol, ya, i remember that. good times, terrance, good times. now all we have to do is sell that video and we'll be golden! show me the money! WTF DO U TWO DOOO UP THERE!!!! Gawd!
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Post by Blues on Mar 22, 2007 18:10:49 GMT -5
yeah wtf man. get with it.
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