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Post by Monolith on Sept 14, 2005 21:59:17 GMT -5
I suppose I'm kinda asking for it, but I think this whol issue has kinda been repressed for too long. However, I'm making this thread not as a debate, but more to establish a sense of where people stand and hopefully at least encourage some respect for others' belief systems. I restate, this topic has been floating around since some guy/gal stood up and said "I'm an athiest." A bunch of High School/College students are not going to sort out who's 'right.'
In any case, I ask that you read what I and veryone else write with an open mind, slowly and carefully. Do not post swearing or say that something is stupid or illogical. RELIGION IS NOT LOGICAL!!! It is based on faith. I also ask that we keep this focussed on now, not what happened way back when people thought the world was flat. Focuss on ideals, concepts, and provide as little refference to reallife as possible, other than to point out the success or lack thereof of a certain value or system. This is conceptual and idealistic. I also ask that you on'tlet someone else speak for you. (no links to websites)
I will start by stating the issues that I see as the most pressing: -Whether or not religion and government should be allowed to mingle -Whether or not creationism (the concept that God created everything) should be taught in schools -Whether there is universal good and evil -Whether a religion can be accurately conveyed through a church
There are undoubtedly more, so feel free to post them yourself. Remember, an issue consists of the word 'whether' followed by an argument. This is the fomal definition of 'issue'.
Just as a final reminder, this is not a contest, it's to establish respect or at least tolerance.
If you ignored the above and post something intentionally hurtful or inflamitory, I ask that the moderators delete the post, or at least the offending part, and depending on the severity of the attack ban the person.
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Post by Random on Sept 14, 2005 22:30:51 GMT -5
Alright, my stance.
I'm agnostic, meaning I really don't know what really is. I have no problem at all with religion, in fact I think its good a fair amount of the time because often times it helps people, though at the same time events such as the crusades can be inspired by it, though that might be indirectly because the church promoted it, I really don't know.
- Whether or not religion and government should be allowed to mingle Absolutely not. I do not think that putting the well-being of people of many different religions in the hands of people of one religion is a good idea. Either the governed will resent lack of representation of their religions, or the government will abuse its abilities to spread their religion.
- Whether or not creationism should be taught in schools No. Because science is based in logic and observed things, while religion is not, as stated in the first post.
- Whether there is universal good and evil I don't think so, though certain things are good, and certain things are evil, there is plenty of grey area where ethics and morals aren't solid and people aren't completely sure what is right and wrong.
- Whether a religion can be accurately converyed through a church I really have no idea, I'm not religious, I don't go to church, and I'm not familiar with either.
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Post by BlueDolphin on Sept 14, 2005 23:17:27 GMT -5
-Whether or not religion and government should be allowed to mingle I think that the government cannot do anything that promotes one religion over the others. So the government can't make any laws that enforces one religion's ideas and rules on others.
-Whether or not creationism (the concept that God created everything) should be taught in schools I say definitely not. Creationism is just a religion story and can't really be taken literally like a newspaper. If we let them in, then we should also let in all the other ideas from all different religions which would be too numerous. Some people have promoted the idea of "give us the ideas and let us decide." This idea is just as sound as letting people in astronomy class decide between the crystal sphere idea of aristotle and modern astronomy.
-Whether there is universal good and evil Not sure about this one... In just humans, certainly.
-Whether a religion can be accurately conveyed through a church I don't really know this one.
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Post by Arachis on Sept 14, 2005 23:49:30 GMT -5
ok... as far as religion is concerned, in my opinion the closest western religion (I dont know much about eastern religions beyond their basic belief system) to the "perfect religion" is judaism. Before you ask why let me define what I call the "perfect religion". For me, a religion is not supposed to explain how the world came to be, or require certain acts in order to remain good. In my opinion, religion should be a social organization that promotes certain social values, provides a community and teaches its members about the world in an open-minded way. Judaism does these things. Rather than being a set in stone, follow or not follow religion, you are free to believe in, and follow as many rules in the religion as you want. There are some jews who will eat kosher, and some will eat pork on occasion. The rules arent so much rules as guidelines. Furthermore, the religion isnt so much about believing in a divine presence that rules over your lives (which in my opinion leads to people blaming acts on it, or claiming divine intervention) but its more about how you can take example from god, and borrow his strength and wisdom to act on your own. If you commit a sin, rather than praying to god, (although this is done too), the main path to forgiveness is apologizing to the person who you did harm to, and seeking their forgiveness. Finally the Jewish community is a large organization that fosters growth and good education for its members.
As far as Im concernerd, religion and government shouldnt mingle in so far as a government should never decree how a religion should behave (outside of regulations that apply to organizations of any kind, a church should be considered the same as any other non-profit organization.) And a religion should never decree how a government should behave. But that shouldnt prevent people in government from believing.
As far as creationism in schools, its a cool story, but unless its being taught in english class (either to better understand books, or even as a book on its own) it shouldnt be taught. That doesnt make it a substitute for science and an english class discussing the bible ought to focus on the literary aspect rather than the religious meaning (although to an extent the two are intertwined).
Whether there is universal good and evil. No.
And I personally dont think that a religion can be accurately conveyed through a church, because when a single organization dictates how the religion is supposed to be interpreted to all the followers, then the religion loses meaning to each person, and no one person can interpret the religion on their own (which to me is one of the most important aspects of religion). However, a single church (ie building, mosque, etc) can promote religion through the community it creates.
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Post by Evilduck on Sept 15, 2005 0:37:40 GMT -5
I am sort of religious. I have come to realize that I didn't believe in the God that talks to Cain and Abel in the Genesis, but I do believe in God. It is hard to explain what God I believe in. For example, the sun is in a way our God. It created all of us and supplies us with energy. It could also be a higher being, and we dont realize it and think it is innanimate.
-can religion be conveyed by a church? No. A person must find their own religion for themselves. In fact many Christians have different ideas about religion than fellow Christians of the same branch even. Churches do surve a purpouse in continuing a religion but oftentimes they take too much authority with interpreting it.
-church and state combined? No. Looking back at history that has often ended badly.
-Good and evil are ideas created by humans. We have to distinguish between 'good and evil' and 'good and bad'. Good and bad is when something we like/dont like happens. Good and evil are moral and immoral. Something good is something done with kind intent. Something evil is something done with malicious intent. Since humans are the only species that can analyze their actions very throughoutly, they are the only ones capable of good and evil.
-creationism could be taught at schools, but only for one day. Where they say, "God created everything". I dont know if there is more than that to be taught.
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