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Post by Monolith on Jun 11, 2005 16:05:14 GMT -5
By request of Archagon. Get your discussion on!
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Post by Archagon on Jun 11, 2005 16:07:13 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this recently, and I've come to the conclusion that abortion should be allowed. With so many different opinions, what better way to let people do what they feel right than by letting them choose themselves. Do you believe it's murder? Then don't do it. If you believe otherwise, then why should someone be allowed to force their opinions upon you? When the issue is fuzzy, it's much safer to let the individual choose for themselves. On the other, this choice may reflect poorly on our society. If it is legal, people will start to think that their government is saying it's ok, and then will start complaining. This is the real dilema in my mind, not what should be done but how to present it in a way that your average American, who probably can't find the US on a world map, will be able to understand and accept the descision. (for reference)
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Post by Archagon on Jun 11, 2005 16:19:50 GMT -5
[Devil's advocate] So, by your logic, the murder of insane people should be allowed. They aren't alive in the human sense of the word, right? [/Devil's advocate]
Unfortunately, I don't think the issue can be resolved that easily. There will always be an irreconcilable schism between the religious and the rational, and no democracy will ever permanently stick to either side.
As for my own opinions on the matter, I believe that abortion should be illegal only after a certain point during the pregnancy. If you're carrying a 5-month-old child, then you certainly shouldn't attempt to destroy it, but taking the pill to prevent conception after a condom breaks or after rape shouldn't be shameful or illegal.
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Post by Monolith on Jun 12, 2005 1:20:54 GMT -5
Yeah, the timing is definately important. No abortions the day you give birth, or peope would use it as a loophole to take almost permanent pregnancy leave.
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Post by Arachis on Jun 12, 2005 13:21:07 GMT -5
doing that would be a shameful abuse of the system nick. I hope, for humanity sake, that no-one would ever do that.
Also Archagon "So, by your logic, the murder of insane people should be allowed. They aren't alive in the human sense of the word, right?" The answer to that is yes, they should sometimes be murdered. When the burden of taking care of them becomes too much for a family to handle, then in that case they should be killed. see my post in the other thread for more details about this. However, insane people are alive in the human sense of the word, and should be killed for other reasons. They have brains that function (though perhaps not properly). This makes them alive.
look alexie, lets say that you have an ingrown toenail. Will you feel bad for cutting that toenail off? its part of you. its alive (some of the cells in it are alive). Is it murder? Until the baby leaves the body of the mother, it is still a part of her and she should be free to get rid of it. Though that is a little overexagerating, (since the baby is a little more alive than an ingrown toenail) the point is still similar.
Furthermore, abortion has been proven to decrease the crime rate. Though some studies show that "wanted" children are more likely to be victims of child abuse (this is most likely because of bad sampling of data though, the study that showed this was based off of recorded events of child abuse, and poor people/ people with less education are less likely to report child abuse). Studies have shown that the legalization of abortion had a large decrease in crime 25 years later, when those same babies would have become adult criminals. In general, after browsing various websites, I found that in this area, pro-life websites had few good statistics against this and most of them were poor studies (like the first one), while the pro-choice websites had good statistics and data. My conclusion is (whether or not this is a factor in your decision for choice or life) that abortion does prevent unwanted children and is in that sense socially beneficial.
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Post by BlueDolphin on Jun 12, 2005 13:58:06 GMT -5
Yeah, the timing is definately important. No abortions the day you give birth, or peope would use it as a loophole to take almost permanent pregnancy leave. I think no one would ever do this even if they completely lacked any sort of morality. Being pregnant permanetly doesn't seem very pleasant.
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Post by Archagon on Jun 12, 2005 15:56:05 GMT -5
The answer to that is yes, they should sometimes be murdered. But they have souls, do they not? What right does a human being have to kill another, especially if the 'other' does not wish to be killed? That's not true. You are not necessarily part of something just because you're in or attached to it. In this case, the value of human life outweighs the need to destroy it. Why not also kill the sick to alleviate taxes? Remember: according to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Article 3), "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." Everyone. The discussion of human life in a purely rational context sickens me. People are more than just numbers or abstract figurines on graph paper.
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Post by Arachis on Jun 12, 2005 16:32:14 GMT -5
What right does a human being have to kill another, especially if the 'other' does not wish to be killed? If the other doesnt wish to be killed then noone has the right to kill that person. Then it becomes murder. The only exception to this is if the person is not in the condition to say whether or not they want to be killed, in which case it is the familys decision. As I said, this doesnt necessarily have to be a factor in your decision for pro life or pro-choice, Im just stating it as a fact, and presenting the truth that sometimes, minor crimes or abuses of human rights have to be made in order to prevent other ones. In my opinion, I dont see anything wrong in "killing" a fetus. To me, its just like slaughtering a cow, or another animal. Its not human yet. As a result, considering the alternative, an unwanted child who becomes a criminal as a result, for me I would much rather kill the fetus. But in article 1 it says "Men are born and remain free and equal in rights". Fetus are not born yet, so they dont get the rights given to men yet according to this document. But unfortunately you obviously have had no experience with people who would be happier off dead than alive because of a mental illness, or a mother trying to decide whether its better to get an abortion or not, otherwise you would realize that many people are tragically destroyed by these same situations, and the pressure of pro-life arguments on these people can sometimes exact a huge price from them. When your grandparents get Alsheimers and you wish that they could die so that they could be happy, so that your family can have time again, and so that you dont have to spend all your money on your granparents and maybe move to a cheaper neighborhood you will understand. Otherwise you will probably send them to a nursing home like most americans do and forget about them, where they will be miserable for the rest of their lives.
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Post by Salome on Jun 14, 2005 17:53:58 GMT -5
i think bringing in active euthanasia is stretching the point a little. after all, its really not the same thing. but you have a point. life isnt the best answer for everything. and if you decided that killing people/fetuses is justified under some circumstances, who gets to decide what those circumstances are? do you actually trust our current government to make decisions like that?
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Post by Andrew on Jun 18, 2005 3:20:00 GMT -5
Abortion is wrong because Andrew said so.
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Post by Salome on Jun 18, 2005 14:46:54 GMT -5
i must admit, i havent heard that arguement before... do u have any proof to back up that statement?
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Post by Monolith on Jun 19, 2005 4:15:33 GMT -5
Abortion is wrong because Andrew said so. Another powerful argument for those in favor of abortion.
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Post by Blues on Jun 19, 2005 22:23:52 GMT -5
I'm in favour because I am.
no, j/k. I think it's a huge breach of women's right by not having it legal. I mean, if we made it illegal, Women would be in grave dancer...because of all the Hormonally over-charged men who like to fuck, and they'd get preagnent etc. also...if we made it illegal, they might seek other alternatives that may not be as safe for an illigal abourtion. I think I saw a move once that delt with that.....
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Post by Salome on Jun 19, 2005 22:25:18 GMT -5
terrance has a point. if abortion were illegal, ppl would just resort to more dangerous/illegal methods of aborting
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Post by bezzerkker on Jun 20, 2005 2:18:02 GMT -5
But they would do it anyways. However, there are those who would choose not to abort and go through with the pregnancy. Then, they could put the child up for adoption if they did not want it. This would then make the child wanted and give it a chance at the life it would have been denied. I'd hate to think how many of my friends wouldn't be around if their birth parents decided on abortion.
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