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Post by Blues on May 18, 2006 21:57:21 GMT -5
jesus you guys. I guess this was a bigger deal that I thought.
let me see if I have this right
SSB is supposed for sole nintendo charas. Snake's connection is there, but it's a stretch.
PJ says Cloud could be included, if they're going to introduce non sole nintendo charas
Nick says there has to be at least a sketchy connection if someone's going to be introduced. And this is against Cloud because he has no connection what so ever to Nintendo.
right?
and PJ, I honestly don't think you can dumb down convos to simp[licities like that. Nick's right, you kind of are putting words in his mouth, as ironic as that sounds,.
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Post by Random on May 18, 2006 22:08:47 GMT -5
in several posts thus far you have accused me of something or other that i didn't do and then once i called you on it you didn't mention it again, so don't say a damn word about putting words in your mouth
yes, you made a point there, then i followed it up with my own point and it went on from there
and yes nick, because you're oh so intelligent everyone else should think out what you're thinking exactly to understand your point because really we ought to be worshipping you so why don't we just make your points for you while we do it. i still don't understand why you think that of all characters theres no way in hell that you think cloud could be in there, ESPECIALLY considering you mention dante who fits a similar description concerning what consoles hes appeared on, and the only conclusion i can reach from THAT example is bias against cloud, not that i care about cloud, i care about lack of open mindedness and hypocritical statements
and if you want to say that i spew out inflamatory stuff and claim its wrong as well, you have no place doing it yourself, so make up your mind about where you stand, i do not believe that i do that without prior provocation of a similar nature
@terrance: i wasn't even really dumbing those down thats pretty much exactly what he said, especially with the latter bits
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Post by Monolith on May 18, 2006 22:33:37 GMT -5
in several posts thus far you have accused me of something or other that i didn't do and then once i called you on it you didn't mention it again, so don't say a damn word about putting words in your mouth yes, you made a point there, then i followed it up with my own point and it went on from there Support your argument with examples. and yes nick, because you're oh so intelligent everyone else should think out what you're thinking exactly to understand your point because really we ought to be worshipping you so why don't we just make your points for you while we do it. i still don't understand why you think that of all characters theres no way in hell that you think cloud could be in there, ESPECIALLY considering you mention dante who fits a similar description concerning what consoles hes appeared on, and the only conclusion i can reach from THAT example is bias against cloud, not that i care about cloud, i care about lack of open mindedness and hypocritical statements Please learn to read between the lines. Guts and Dante were sarcastic because neither has anything to do with Nintendo. My reason for posting was that I considder both to have more character and personality than Cloud. Yeah, it was just some Cloud hatin', neither of them belongs in the game and I never honestly thought that, not that you'll even believe me. Since you still do not seem to understand (or are simply ignoring me) I will repeat myself AGAIN! Yes folks, this is the third time: Why doesn't Cloud belong in the game? Because SSB is a compilation of Nintendo owned and related characters, and Cloud is neither of these. I'm waiting to see your argument as to why he should be in the game. and if you want to say that i spew out inflamatory stuff and claim its wrong as well, you have no place doing it yourself, so make up your mind about where you stand, i do not believe that i do that without prior provocation of a similar nature What a joke: "I'm beginning to not give two shits about the story crap, so I'm not going to make a case for myself because honestly, I don't care. However, its complete bullshit that you've said stuff like whats above in the past and even think about whining at alex for taking his time, I mean fuck did you even ask him why he was busy? Ever even consider it for half a second?" You're right though, that wasn't very nice of me. Sorry for sinking to your level. @terrance: i wasn't even really dumbing those down thats pretty much exactly what he said, especially with the latter bits You dumbed a lot of it down enough, failing to even credit my argument.
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Post by Random on May 18, 2006 23:28:38 GMT -5
1) I think there's not way in hell it could happen. The reason that requirement is necessary is that it would be ridiculous for Nintendo to create a sequel to SSB, a game the consists of Nintendo owned and now Nintendo tied characters, to add in some random character with no relation whatsoever with Nintendo. Sure they have the ability to make a game with a completely non-Nintendo character from another company, but why the hell would they? In that case it would be Nintendo vs. Square-Enix, not SSB. There's the black and white. You already seemed to accept this, so why are you going back on it now. Why doesn't Cloud belong in the game? Because SSB is a compilation of Nintendo owned and related characters, and Cloud is neither of these. i honestly don't really recall arguing specifically that he should be in the game, granted, i always used cloud as the example because thats what was there, but, i've mentioned at least once before that i'm talking about 3rd party characters in general, and as far as my argument goes, its why not, because honestly in this situation nintendo would need more of a reason to not include other characters more so than to include them, and from there i simply argued against your points, so if anyone is ignoring anyone else, its you ignoring what i've been saying yea, you started with an incredibly hypocritical demand, trying to get others to do something for you when they're busy after you couldn't do something for them when you were busy, and i responded. simple as that. and you can't sink to a level that you started at 1. i have read absolute nothing that you have said that has come anywhere near explaining why there has to be a connection until that last post 1. That's because it was obvious. 1. "you're wrong" "why?" "because its obvious that i'm right". . . and yet you ask me for the why 1. I thought it was obvious that SSB was a game made for Nintendo characters and Nintendo tie ins. I figured you'd be smart enough to get this. I guess I was wrong. how you can even argue that i dumbed that down is beyond me, that was practically exactly what you said with some changes in connotation
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Post by Monolith on May 18, 2006 23:54:41 GMT -5
i honestly don't really recall arguing specifically that he should be in the game, granted, i always used cloud as the example because thats what was there, but, i've mentioned at least once before that i'm talking about 3rd party characters in general, and as far as my argument goes, its why not, because honestly in this situation nintendo would need more of a reason to not include other characters more so than to include them, and from there i simply argued against your points, so if anyone is ignoring anyone else, its you ignoring what i've been saying Honestly that entire thing is a pile of crap. "because honestly in this situation nintendo would need more of a reason to not include other characters more so than to include them" I still don't see any reason why they should include them. They have a reason not to include them, the one I've been arguing, which is currently greater than nothing: which is how many reasons they have to put them in. I guess you've said a few things, but most of them are pretty flawed: -Nintendo can proffit off of the fans: They could proffit just as much by including other characters, such as Snake who they've already chosen. Why be a sellout and promote other company's consoles? They'd just be saying, "Look at this great character, too bad Nintendo doesn't have one like it." -Nintendo will run out of characters: As I said before, Nintendo has a wealth of characters from the olden days. So what if you don't recognize some of them, the veteran gamers (the average gamer is 21 and many more have been gaming for longer than us) will recognize them. In any case, it's not like they need to add ten new characters or something. it would be better if they spent time ballancing a smaller number. Am I missing something? yea, you started with an incredibly hypocritical demand, trying to get others to do something for you when they're busy after you couldn't do something for them when you were busy, and i responded. simple as that. and you can't sink to a level that you started at We've already been through that argument, don't divert the issue. My point with posting that is your tendency to explode into inflamitory comments with little provocation. how you can even argue that i dumbed that down is beyond me, that was practically exactly what you said with some changes in connotation First page, you seemed to forget about this. I've really just been restating and clarifying this argument up until now. The whole point of SSB is for classic (Nintendo)characters to be put into one compilation. Cloud has zippo to do with Nintendo In any case, is there something that isn't obvious about SSB being a compilation of Nintendo characters? I think that's pretty much the reason the game exists.
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Post by Random on May 19, 2006 0:10:19 GMT -5
We've already been through that argument, don't divert the issue. then don't freaking bring it up, if you want to talk about it, bring it up, if you don't, don't, very simple First page, you seemed to forget about this. I've really just been restating and clarifying this argument up until now. for the last effing time i wasn't talking about your argument specifically but they way you acted overall with the discussion, that should be incredibly clear considering that the actual content of your argument never showed up in that part In any case, is there something that isn't obvious about SSB being a compilation of Nintendo characters? I think that's pretty much the reason the game exists. honestly i think the only reason they didn't look to 3rd party companies for other characters was because they didn't want to deal with getting licenses on the first of a series of games, otherwise i think its meant to be a specific style of fighting games, just because it has nintendo characters almost exclusively doesn't mean that its intended to only be about nintendo characters
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Post by Monolith on May 19, 2006 0:33:58 GMT -5
then don't freaking bring it up, if you want to talk about it, bring it up, if you don't, don't, very simple I wasn't bringing up the argument, it was the nature of your response. for the last effing time i wasn't talking about your argument specifically but they way you acted overall with the discussion, that should be incredibly clear considering that the actual content of your argument never showed up in that part Well, there's this one: me: cloud would be interesting you: cloud has no connection to nintendo me: there doesn't neccesarily need to be one you: yea there needs to be one me: well i'm not thinking about it with that requirement you: there has to be one me: i don't see a need for it you: there has to be one etc. . . I explained why there has to be a connection pretty clearly, yet you dumbed it down so i sounded like I had no clue what I was talking about. honestly i think the only reason they didn't look to 3rd party companies for other characters was because they didn't want to deal with getting licenses on the first of a series of games, otherwise i think its meant to be a specific style of fighting games, just because it has nintendo characters almost exclusively doesn't mean that its intended to only be about nintendo characters Well, considdering the producer, i.e. the pretty much responsible for the existence of the games, quit after the second game, and considdering that there was considderable doubt amoung Nintendo execs as to whether or not the game would actually exist, and considdering it was pure chance that the decision was made and they got the producer back to make the game, I find it quite doubtful that the ever intended the game to include 3rd party characters. Source: www.smashbros.com/en/story/index.html
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Post by Random on May 19, 2006 1:05:51 GMT -5
again, thats not what we're talking about, or maybe you are and i'm not, but that doesn't really make sense to me considering what we've said about it prior to this. if you read what i said, i'm talking about how you acted overall in the discussion, loading various things with connotation and making implications that attack the person and not the opinion honestly i think the only reason they didn't look to 3rd party companies for other characters was because they didn't want to deal with getting licenses on the first of a series of games, otherwise i think its meant to be a specific style of fighting games, just because it has nintendo characters almost exclusively doesn't mean that its intended to only be about nintendo characters Well, considdering the producer, i.e. the pretty much responsible for the existence of the games, quit after the second game, and considdering that there was considderable doubt amoung Nintendo execs as to whether or not the game would actually exist, and considdering it was pure chance that the decision was made and they got the producer back to make the game, I find it quite doubtful that the ever intended the game to include 3rd party characters. Source: www.smashbros.com/en/story/index.htmlyea thats great and all except for the revelation that Hideo Kojima was apparently practically begging to get Snake into melee (see IGN SSBB article for quote), which makes it sound like they were at least listening to Hideo since i don't think they'd've heard enough from him to call it practically begging if they were totally closed to the idea
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Post by Monolith on May 19, 2006 1:18:30 GMT -5
again, thats not what we're talking about, or maybe you are and i'm not, but that doesn't really make sense to me considering what we've said about it prior to this. if you read what i said, i'm talking about how you acted overall in the discussion, loading various things with connotation and making implications that attack the person and not the opinion And I'm explaining why I did so. I supported my argument and you neglected it and then put words in my mouth. You did your fair share of shifting the issue away from the argument yourself. In any case, we should get back to the original topic, because the rest of this has just been flame (blame that on me if you want, I don't care) or garbage. yea thats great and all except for the revelation that Hideo Kojima was apparently practically begging to get Snake into melee (see IGN SSBB article for quote), which makes it sound like they were at least listening to Hideo since i don't think they'd've heard enough from him to call it practically begging if they were totally closed to the idea That doesn't support the notion that it was the original plan and of course he was begging. After the decision was made he still had to get the liscence wich probably wasn't easy considdering how distant the connection was. Also, it's not my responsibility to dredge up information to support your arguments, find the link yourself and show me. Edit: Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think I finally understand what you're saying in one regard. For the record, I definately agree with Nintendo adding in more 3rd party characters as long as they have a Nintendo tie in. I'm only arguing against characters who have no relation to the company or its consoles. I'm not sure if you were arguing for all 3rd party characters or just those that have never been on the console, but this might clear it up.
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Post by Random on May 19, 2006 2:04:02 GMT -5
And I'm explaining why I did so. I supported my argument and you neglected it and then put words in my mouth. You did your fair share of shifting the issue away from the argument yourself. In any case, we should get back to the original topic, because the rest of this has just been flame (blame that on me if you want, I don't care) or garbage. yea it turned to flame because i got sick of perceived insults. and don't bother saying you weren't insulting me because i already threw in the perceived and i'm not neccesarily saying you were, i can't read your mind, i don't know what you're thinking, all i know is how i perceive and react to things that're said. That doesn't support the notion that it was the original plan and of course he was begging. After the decision was made he still had to get the liscence wich probably wasn't easy considdering how distant the connection was. Also, it's not my responsibility to dredge up information to support your arguments, find the link yourself and show me. Edit: Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think I finally understand what you're saying in one regard. For the record, I definately agree with Nintendo adding in more 3rd party characters as long as they have a Nintendo tie in. I'm only arguing against characters who have no relation to the company or its consoles. I'm not sure if you were arguing for all 3rd party characters or just those that have never been on the console, but this might clear it up. i'm not saying that that was the original plan, but i am definitely saying that that idea was definitely there. and why the hell would there be licensing issues? hideo kojima = maker of MGS, and if the SSBM guys say "alright lets do this" for putting snake in there shouldn't be anything more to do than just sign a couple papers for the licensing stuff and i am arguing for all 3rd party characters but its focused on those without appearances on nintendo consoles simply because thats the only one that people're disagreeing with as far as that goes, i understand what you mean about it being about nintendo characters and ones that have some manner of connection, but i simply do not see why not the others, i mean sure they don't have a connection but so what? i don't see what the harm would be in bringing them in, it'd be nice variety and more stuff that people don't see in every other nintendo game they buy. . .i mean sure nintendo banks on series but at a certain point, no one wants to fucking kill ganon again
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Post by Monolith on May 19, 2006 2:19:25 GMT -5
yea it turned to flame because i got sick of perceived insults. and don't bother saying you weren't insulting me because i already threw in the perceived and i'm not neccesarily saying you were, i can't read your mind, i don't know what you're thinking, all i know is how i perceive and react to things that're said. Actually, I think you're right. Some of the stuff I said was pretty offensive, and perhpas I meant it to be. Maybe I was still a bit pissed after the last argument, but now I'm sorry. I'll try and stop being an ass, I hope we can finish the debate in a better nature. i'm not saying that that was the original plan, but i am definitely saying that that idea was definitely there. and why the hell would there be licensing issues? hideo kojima = maker of MGS, and if the SSBM guys say "alright lets do this" for putting snake in there shouldn't be anything more to do than just sign a couple papers for the licensing stuff and i am arguing for all 3rd party characters but its focused on those without appearances on nintendo consoles simply because thats the only one that people're disagreeing with as far as that goes, i understand what you mean about it being about nintendo characters and ones that have some manner of connection, but i simply do not see why not the others, i mean sure they don't have a connection but so what? i don't see what the harm would be in bringing them in, it'd be nice variety and more stuff that people don't see in every other nintendo game they buy. . .i mean sure nintendo banks on series but at a certain point, no one wants to fucking kill ganon again It's true that it would be fun for the consumer, but I think it would come off as glorifying another console or company. I would like to see a fighting game with characters from a whole bunch of different sources, but I think that it's unlikely to be SSB, there's just too much company competition. As for liscencing, it's easy to make the liscence but it's hard to arrange the agreements and even convince the company it's a good idea. For one, 3rd parties can have agreements with certain companies to develope a certain game series. For another thing, it's intelectual property and companies are probably quite reluctant to sign on to a a game that they will have little or no part in making, and perhaps not make much proffit from. This is also a problem for Nintendo, since they have to pay the liscencing fees.
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Post by Random on May 19, 2006 2:29:12 GMT -5
yea it turned to flame because i got sick of perceived insults. and don't bother saying you weren't insulting me because i already threw in the perceived and i'm not neccesarily saying you were, i can't read your mind, i don't know what you're thinking, all i know is how i perceive and react to things that're said. Actually, I think you're right. Some of the stuff I said was pretty offensive, and perhpas I meant it to be. Maybe I was still a bit pissed after the last argument, but now I'm sorry. I'll try and stop being an ass, I hope we can finish the debate in a better nature. ditto It's true that it would be fun for the consumer, but I think it would come off as glorifying another console or company. I would like to see a fighting game with characters from a whole bunch of different sources, but I think that it's unlikely to be SSB, there's just too much company competition. As for liscencing, it's easy to make the liscence but it's hard to arrange the agreements and even convince the company it's a good idea. For one, 3rd parties can have agreements with certain companies to develope a certain game series. For another thing, it's intelectual property and companies are probably quite reluctant to sign on to a a game that they will have little or no part in making, and perhaps not make much proffit from. This is also a problem for Nintendo, since they have to pay the liscencing fees. with the first part, yes, i don't think its that likely that SSB will be that immediately, however due to the current climate with the PS3 and the overall negative feeling that seems to surround it, i can imagine a LOT of developers getting anxious and jumping ship to join up with nintendo, maybe not immediately, but if things are delivered more or less in line with expectations. . . i think theres going to be a big shift. Hideo Kojima is in pretty high standing within Konami. . .he used to be the VP, and only stepped down so he could focus on game design more, so i think he still has a great deal of influence and i'm pretty sure all the licensing stuff done for SSBB was worked out pretty amiably considering how early it has been released to the media. Plus, SSB is a pretty decently established series with only 2 games so far, so i dunno how much the issue of whether or not it'll flop would come into play. as far as them making money goes. . .well, on a guess, i would say that there are a large number of younger gamers. . maybe 12-14 or so that don't know about MGS because its kinda. . . well, they're young, and lets face it, nintendo's crowd can be kind of innocent, so they see "Hey! whos this new guy? hes cool! spy!" and check out the MGS series as a result. i realize that may be interpretted as a bit of a stretch but i think its completely realistic and my overall point is that there're ways to make money off of having a character in SSB that go beyond just SSB
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Post by Monolith on May 19, 2006 2:44:08 GMT -5
with the first part, yes, i don't think its that likely that SSB will be that immediately, however due to the current climate with the PS3 and the overall negative feeling that seems to surround it, i can imagine a LOT of developers getting anxious and jumping ship to join up with nintendo, maybe not immediately, but if things are delivered more or less in line with expectations. . . i think theres going to be a big shift. I'm assuming you heard about the lines at E3. Nintendo owned the convention. We'll definately see more stuff from 3rd companies on the Wii than on the GC. Still, I think these companies will shoose to create new characters for the console or at least develope a sequel to an existing game on the new console before liscencing characters out. It would seem a bit out of place to just stick a random character of theirs on the console. Hideo Kojima is in pretty high standing within Konami. . .he used to be the VP, and only stepped down so he could focus on game design more, so i think he still has a great deal of influence and i'm pretty sure all the licensing stuff done for SSBB was worked out pretty amiably considering how early it has been released to the media. Plus, SSB is a pretty decently established series with only 2 games so far, so i dunno how much the issue of whether or not it'll flop would come into play. I know it'll do well in this regard, unless they do something crappy with the controller (which is pretty unlikely). Hopefully, we'll see some more Konami stuff. as far as them making money goes. . .well, on a guess, i would say that there are a large number of younger gamers. . maybe 12-14 or so that don't know about MGS because its kinda. . . well, they're young, and lets face it, nintendo's crowd can be kind of innocent, so they see "Hey! whos this new guy? hes cool! spy!" and check out the MGS series as a result. i realize that may be interpretted as a bit of a stretch but i think its completely realistic and my overall point is that there're ways to make money off of having a character in SSB that go beyond just SSB Definately true, but at the same time this is a danger if the series is from another console. That would just give money to other consoles.
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Post by Random on May 19, 2006 3:08:58 GMT -5
I'm assuming you heard about the lines at E3. Nintendo owned the convention. We'll definately see more stuff from 3rd companies on the Wii than on the GC. Still, I think these companies will shoose to create new characters for the console or at least develope a sequel to an existing game on the new console before liscencing characters out. It would seem a bit out of place to just stick a random character of theirs on the console. i didn't really hear about the lines specifically but just by reading random news bits it was pretty obvious sony got pwned and nintendo came out on top by a lot, and yea, i understand the bit about a random character, but keep in mind, SSBB is NOT A LAUNCH TITLE, yes, everyone reading this that didn't know, i know it hurts but its not, so theres certainly possibility for other games to come in and get positive feedback and then get some characters onto SSBB, though on the other hand it all depends on how late in 2007 SSBB gets released for that one I know it'll do well in this regard, unless they do something crappy with the controller (which is pretty unlikely). Hopefully, we'll see some more Konami stuff. i agree, highly unlikely, and i also think that nintendo is practically immune to the crappy controller stuff cause from what it sounds like you can just plug in your old gamecube controller for most games if you really feel like it (you're MEANT to with SSBB anyways) Definately true, but at the same time this is a danger if the series is from another console. That would just give money to other consoles. yea, that one was more directed at the charas with tie ins, but like i said above if we're lucky a lot of crap will be ported in the first few months and then its all nintendo again
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Post by Arachis on May 30, 2006 3:50:13 GMT -5
And the SSBB debate rages on. I think my favorite quote was terrances. well, why'd you suggest him in the first place? obvi. FF was on your mind, at least for a second. Terrance just managed to divide the world into two types of people. FF fanboys and people who have never played FF. On a more provocative note I personally see Nintendos choice of solid snake to be more reasonable than bringing in Cloud as well. And while nicks reason that Nintendo needs to use Nintendo characters is a valid one, for me the importance is more the spirit of the character. For some reason, Clouds dramatic edge prevents me from really imagining him in an SSB game, but then again I could have said the same thing about link but he managed to make it in. Although I dont think that link is really as moody as Cloud is. For me thats a main problem.
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